The 2023 NBA season kicks off on Tuesday, October 24th, and with that the Denver Nuggets will be looking to defend their title as NBA champions. With numerous teams prepared to take the leap to glory, this year’s NBA power rankings have a multitude of teams that could make or break their championship timelines. With full starting 5s and rosters for each team, and descriptions for the top half of the league (and the Toronto Raptors), here’s TSB’s ’23 NBA power rankings.

Larry O’Brien Favourites

1. Denver Nuggets (+450)

PG: Jamal Murray, Reggie Jackson, Collin Gillespie, Souley Boum
SG: Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Christian Braun, Jalen Pickett, Armaan Franklin
SF: Michael Porter Jr., Justin Holiday, Julian Strawther, Andrew Funk
PF: Aaron Gordon, Peyton Watson, Hunter Tyson
, Braxton Key, Vlatko Cancar
C: Nikola Jokic, Zeke Nnaji, DeAndre Jordan, Jay Huff

The reigning NBA champion Denver Nuggets have an absolutely stacked roster. The Nuggets are looking to run it back with essentially the same roster, along with new additions Justin Holiday, Jalen Pickett, Hunter Tyson, and rookie Julian Strawther.

Denver dominated the NBA playoffs last year, finishing with a 16-4 playoff record, ending on a 8-1 run after sweeping the Lakers in the western conference finals and then beating the Miami Heat 4-1 in the NBA finals. It’s going to take something special to knock this team off their throne, for that reason they maintain the top spot, even if their best player hasn’t touched a ball all offseason and is not even remotely excited to be back in the United States.

2. Boston Celtics (+500)

PG: Jrue Holiday, Dalano Banton, JD Davison
SG: Derrick White, Payton Pritchard, Lamar Stevens, Jay Scrubb, DJ Steward
SF: Jaylen Brown, Sam Hauser, Jordan Walsh, Svi Mykhailiuk
PF: Jayson Tatum, Luke Kornet, Oshae Brissett, Taylor Funk
C: Kristaps Porzingis, Al Horford,
Neemias Queta

After acquiring Jrue Holiday from the Trail Blazers, shortly after he was sent to Portland in the Damian Lillard trade, the Boston Celtics suddenly look more threatening than the newly bolstered Bucks with Giannis and Dame.

A clear problem despite a substantially talented roster, will be big depth. Look for the Celtics to try to fill the void left by Robert Williams III as he was sent to Portland with Malcolm Brogdon and two first round picks in the Jrue Holiday deal.

Serious Contenders

3. Milwaukee Bucks (+350)

PG: Damian Lillard, Andre Jackson, Lindell Wigginton, Tyty Washington, Jazian Gortman
SG: Pat Connaughton, Malik Beasley, A.J. Green, Omari Moore
SF: Khris Middleton, MarJon
Beauchamp, Chris Livingston
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jae Crowder,
Thenanis Antetokounmpo, Drew Timme
C: Brook Lopez, Bobby Portis, Robin Lopez, Marques Bolden

There was an unbelievable amount of hype surrounding the Damian Lillard Portland departure saga, mostly coming from Miami Heat, and Toronto Raptors fans. In the end it was Milwaukee who was able to tow Lillard over the line and find him a new home.

Dame provides an interesting new dimension to the Milwaukee Bucks. While he is a top perimeter threat, and an generational three-level scorer, his half-court offensive style and production doesn’t exactly correlate seemlessly to Giannis and the Bucks run and gun, high-tempo, transitional offensive tendencies. That doesn’t mean it will be problematic, but there will almost certainly be a considerable adjustment period.

The Bucks haven’t been to the NBA finals since they won in 2021, it will be interesting to see if Lillard can help them get back over the hump.

4. Phoenix Suns (+600)

PG: Bradley Beal, Damion Lee, Jordan Goodwin, Saben Lee
SG: Devin Booker, Eric Gordon, Nassir Little, Keon Johnson
SF: Grayson Allen, Josh Okogie, Keita Bates-Diop, Ishmail Wainright
PF: Kevin Durant, Yuta Watanabe, Bol Bol
C: Jusuf Nurkic, Drew Eubanks, Chimezie Metu, Udoka Azubuike

The Phoenix Suns had a busy offseason, parting with an astounding 10 players from their roster, Deandre Ayton, Chris Paul, Landry Shamet, T.J. Warren, Bismack Biyombo, Darius Bazley, Torrey Craig, Jock Landale, Cameron Payne, and Terrence Ross.

Those 10 were replaced by a group of 12 including the likes of Bradley Beal, Jusuf Nurkic, Grayson Allen, Eric Gordon, Yuta Watanabe, Drew Eubanks, Bol Bol, Keita Bates-Diop, Keon Johnson etc..

It will be interesting to see how the new look, big-3 Phoenix Suns will fair in the loaded Western Conference, and how Bradley Beal will fit in the former Chris Paul role.

5. Los Angeles Lakers (+1200)

PG: D’Angelo Russell, Gabe Vincent, Jalen Hood-Schifino, Scotty Pippen Jr.
SG: Austin Reaves, Cam Reddish, Max Christie
SF: LeBron James, Taurean Prince, Maxwell Lewis, D’Moi Hodge
PF: Jarred Vanderbilt, Rui Hachimura, Alex Fudge, Vincent Valerio-Bodon
C: Anthony Davis, Christian Wood, Jaxson Hayes, Colin Castleton

The Los Angeles Lakers spent the offseason retooling their supporting cast and ensuring they have plenty of depth around LeBron James and Anthony Davis in order to make a significant run at the Larry O’Brien this year. The emphasis was clearly on depth, as they added Christian Wood, Gabe Vincent, Cam Reddish, Taurean Prince, Jaxson Hayes, drafted Jalen Hood-Schifino from Indiana, and signed 5 undrafted rookies.

The Lakers caught some strays after the Nuggets won the NBA finals, seemingly playing the villain role in Denver’s championship parade. Mike Malone was referred to as the ‘Lakers’ daddy’, and LeBron James and Anthony Davis didn’t seem to take the comments lightly.

The Lakers could be a serious threat to knock the Nuggets off of their high-horses. (Nikola Jokic and Aaron Gordon in Serbia pun intended)

Any NBA fan knows not to count out the King no matter what point of his career he is in, but adding a maturing Anthony Davis and a totally retooled supporting cast to the dynamic makes them a whole lot scarier than they were last season.

Conference Finals or Bust

6. Golden State Warriors (+1200)

PG: Chris Paul, Cory Joseph
SG: Stephen Curry, Gary Payton II, Moses Moody, Lester Quinones
SF: Klay Thompson, Jonathan Kuminga, Brandin Podziemski, Rudy Gay, Rodney McGruder
PF: Andrew Wiggins, Dario Saric, Trayce Jackson-Davis, Usman Garuba
C: Draymond Green, Kevon Looney, Jayce Johnson

This offseason the Warriors traded Jordan Poole, Patrick Baldwin Jr., Ryan Rollins, a ’30 protected first-round pick and a ’27 second-round pick to the Wizards for Chris Paul. They also resigned Draymond, maintaining their championship core.

The Warriors also added Toronto native, Cory Joseph, and Dario Saric from free agency, providing more depth. On top of these additions, they Warriors seemingly had a successful draft, selecting Brandin Podziemski from Santa Clara with the 19th pick in the 1st round, and then Indiana Hoosier Trayce Jackson-Davis in the 2nd round.

7. Miami Heat (+2000)

PG: Kyle Lowry, Josh Richardson, RJ Hampton, Alondes Williams
SG: Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, Dru Smith
SF: Jimmy Butler, Jaime Jaquez, Haywood Highsmith, Jamal Cain, Justin Chapagnie
PF: Kevin Love, Caleb Martin, Nikola Jovic, Cole Swider, Drew Peterson
C: Bam Adebayo, Thomas Bryant, Orlando Robinson, Cheick Diallo

The Miami Heat were Damian Lillard’s preferred destination this offseason, but the teams couldn’t get a deal done. Unfortunately for the Heat that means they are running it back with much of the same roster that got annihilated in the NBA finals last year.

I wouldn’t consider a single addition they made impactful, in fact it was almost as if they were replacing lost pieces this offseason, and praying for a Dame deal to get done, which it did not.

At least Jimmy Butler managed to get the Heat some publicity by showing up to media day in goth, or punk, or emo, or something.

Something he’s seemed to start to enjoy doing over recent years is showing up to media day with hair he will not be sporting during the season. Comical, and unapologetically Jimmy.

8. Los Angeles Clippers (+1600)

PG: Russell Westbrook, Bones Hyland, Jason Preston, Xavier Moon
SG: Paul George, Terance Mann, Amir Coffey, BJ Boston, Brodric Thomas
SF: Kawhi Leonard, Norman Powell, KJ Martin, Jordan Miller
PF: Marcus Morris, Nicolas Batum, Robert Covington, Kobe Brown
C: Ivica Zubac, Mason Plumlee, Moussa Diabate

The Clippers are an interesting group, star studded and well rounded, yet haven’t been able to make significant waves in the playoffs since assembling their lengthy core in the offseason of 2019.

The Clippers front office did essentially nothing this offseason to improve the roster, meaning there is virtually no news to share from their offseason, and they remain just barely in the conversation for teams that have a real chance of winning the the finals, and likely should sneak away from this era of Kawhi and PG with at least a conference championship.

Notably, Norman Powell has stated he should be an NBA All-Star this year, as he believes he is that caliber of player. Will be interesting to see how they navigate their rotation seeing as Kawhi, Paul George, and Russell Westbrook assume the roles of the 3 positions Norm is capable of playing. Kawhi hasn’t shown signs of necessarily progressing with his knee problems, meaning he’s likely to miss a ton of the regular season as usual, but though they likely won’t be winning the 1st seed, or even a top 4 spot, they will be threats come playoff time assuming they’re completely healthy.

Underdogs

9. Sacramento Kings (+4000)

PG: De’Aaron Fox, Davion Mitchell, Jordan Ford
SG: Kevin Huerter, Malik Monk, Colby Jones, Keon Ellis
SF: Harrison Barnes, Chris Duarte, Kessler Edwards, Jalen Slawson
PF: Keegan Murray, Sasha Vezenkov, Alex Len
C: Domantas Sabonis, Trey Lyles, JaVale McGee, Chance Comanche

The Sacramento Kings went out and signed JaVale McGee to bolster their big depth, aside from that they are much of the same team that had a successful season last year. They will look to take the leap to becoming a top NBA team this year, as their young superstars De’Aaron Fox, and Domantas Sabonis continue to mature and improve.

10. Memphis Grizzlies (+2500)

PG: Ja Morant (SSPD), Marcus Smart, Derrick Rose, Jacob Gilyard
SG: Desmond Bane, Luke Kennard, Ziaire Williams, Josh Christopher, Shaquille Harrison
SF: John Konchar, David Roddy, Jake LaRavia, Vince Williams, GG Jackson
PF: Jaren Jackson Jr., Santi Aldama, Kenneth Lofton Jr., Isaiah Todd
C: Steven Adams, Brandon Clarke, Xavier Tillman

The Memphis Grizzlies had a terrific season last year, you could call it their official coming out party as heavyweights in the west. Unfortunately that was all negated by Ja Morant continuously finding himself in trouble with the NBA for brandishing weapons on social media. When the hearings were all said and done Ja was left with a 25-game suspension, meaning he will miss just over 30% of the Grizzlies regular season. Once he’s back, though the new look Grizzlies after replacing Dillon Brooks and Tyus Jones with Marcus Smart, could be a real weapon of a unit come playoff time.

If the reigning defensive player of the year, Jaren Jackson Jr., Desmond Bane, and Steven Adams can hold the Grizz over until they’re superstar reincarnation of Derrick Rose comes back, they could be as scary as anyone.

11. Dallas Mavericks (+1800)

PG: Luka Doncic, Jaden Hardy, Dante Exum, Mike Miles, Jordan Walker
SG: Kyrie Irving, Seth Curry, AJ Lawson, Dexter Dennis
SF: Tim Hardaway Jr., Josh Green, O-Max Prosper, Joe Wieskamp
PF: Grant Williams, Derrick Jones, Markieff Morris, Dereck Lively
C: Dwight Powell, Maxi Kleber, Greg Brown

The Mavericks lost a lot of depth this offseason, including Christian Wood, Reggie Bullock, Justin Holiday, JaVale McGee, Frank Ntilikina and Davis Bertans. But they were able to put that extra cash to good use, resigning Kyrie Irving, Dwight Powell, and Markieff Morris, and adding Derrick Jones, Grant Williams, Seth Curry, Dante Exum, Richaun Holmes, and Joe Wieskamp.

They also notably drafted Canadian Olivier-Maxence Prosper from Marquette, with the 24th pick in the 1st round of the ’23 NBA draft.

12. New York Knicks (+5000)

PG: Jalen Brunson, Miles McBride, Duane Washington Jr, Ryan Arcidiacono
SG: RJ Barrett, Immanuel Quickley, Evan Fournier, Jaylen Martin, Charlie Brown
SF: Quentin Grimes,
Donte DiVincenzo, Josh Hart, DaQuan Jeffries, Dylan Windler
PF: Julius Randle, Isaiah Roby, Jacob Toppin
C: Mitchell Robinson, Isaiah Hartenstein, Jericho Sims, Nathan Knight

The New York Knicks didn’t do a significant amount this offseason, after coming 5th in the east last year they’re relying on their young core to develop in order to improve their hopes of ending the basketball success drought in New York.

Jalen Brunson, RJ Barrett, Julius Randle and Mitchell Robinson have all made it clear they’re capable of winning basketball games in the Mecca, and they’re capable of doing it now. If RJ turns into the player he was expected to be on draft night, this Knicks team could cause the league problems for years to come.

13. Cleveland Cavaliers (+2800)

PG: Darius Garland, Ricky Rubio, Ty Jerome, Craig Porter, Sharife Cooper
SG: Donovan Mitchell, Max Strus, Sam Merrill, Justin Powell, Zhaire Smith
SF: Isaac Okoro, Caris LeVert, Dean Wade, Emoni Bates
PF: Evan Mobley, Georges Niang, Isaiah Mobley, Pete Nance
C: Jarrett Allen, Damian Jones, Tristan Thompson

The Cavaliers have had 2-straight seasons finishing with a record above .500 and in a playoff position. A complete 180 from the direction the franchise was seemingly headed after LeBron departed for a second time. The twin tower combination of Mobley and Allen is sure to cause headaches for opposite bigs attempting to control the glass, and guards attacking the bucket. Not to mention the lightning fast, dynamic backcourt of Garland and Mitchell, with considerable depth behind them.

14. Philadelphia 76ers (+2200)

PG: Tyrese Maxey, Patrick Beverley, Terquavion Smith, David Duke, Javonte Smart
SG: James Harden, De’Anthony Melton, Jaden Springer, Ricky Council
SF: Tobias Harris, Kelly Oubre Jr., Furkan Korkmaz, Danny Green
PF: P.J. Tucker, Danuel House, Azuolas Tubelis
C: Joel Embiid, Paul Reed, Mo Bamba, Filip Petrusev, Montrezl Harrell

As big of a head scratcher as they come in the NBA. The 76ers finished last season 3rd in the east, but ended up losing to the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference Finals. Familiar territory for them, as they’ve lost in the Eastern Conference Semifinals in 5 of their last 6 seasons. Devastating. With all of the Harden drama, and the proven inability for the 76ers to get past the Celtics in the playoffs, it is almost impossible to move them up the power rankings whatsoever.

Longshots

15. New Orleans Pelicans (+4000)

PG: CJ McCollum, Jose Alvarado, Kira Lewis
SG: Herb Jones, Dyson Daniels, Jordan Hawkins
SF: Brandon Ingram, Naji Marshall, Dereon Seabron, Kaiser Gates
PF: Zion Williamson, Larry Nance Jr., EJ Liddell, Trey Murphy
C: Jonas Valanciunas, Cody Zeller

16. Toronto Raptors (+5000)

PG: Scottie Barnes, Dennis Schroeder, Malachi Flynn, Jeff Dowtin, Markquis Nowell
SG: Gary Trent Jr., Gradey Dick,, Garrett Temple, Javon Freeman-Liberty
SF: OG Anunoby, Jalen McDaniels, Otto Porter Jr., Ron Harper Jr., Kevin Obanor
PF: Pascal Siakam, Chris Boucher, Thaddeus Young, Mouhamadou Gueye
C: Jakob Poeltl, Precious Achiuwa, Christian Koloko

Scottie Barnes has reportedly sprouted to 6’11” this offseason, and has also been developing his game at Rico Hines runs with other pros, and NBA vets. Scottie was the talk of the camp for most people in attendanc, displaying Kawhi-like dominance on both ends of the floor.

The Raptors have an interesting season ahead of them as they were incapable of acquiring Damian Lillard, as their front office were not willing to dangle OG Anunoby in order to complete the deal. With multiple players having contract years, the Raptors could go in many directions at the trade deadline, depending on their regular season success or lack there of.

This season should be a telling one in the case of Masai choosing to blow it up, or not. If not then the fanbase will be even more confused than they already are, and with good reason, as nobody seems to have a clue what the front office is doing at this point, or what their overall direction is. Seems like they’re banking on maneuvering their way back into a championship contender the same way the 1996-97 Spurs did, which is just not manageable without the most incredible amount of luck.

17. Oklahoma City Thunder (+10000)

PG: Josh Giddey, Vasilije Micic, Cason Wallace, Isaiah Joe
SG: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Aaron Wiggins, Tre Mann, Lindy Waters, Victor Oladipo
SF: Jalen Williams, Ousmane Dieng, Kenrich Williams, Keyontae Johnson
PF: Luguentz Dort, Aleksej PokuĆĄevski, Jack White, Davis Bertans
C: Chet Holmgren, Jaylin Williams, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl, Olivier Sarr

18. Minnesota Timberwolves (+7000)

PG: Mike Conley, Jordan McLaughlin, Shake Milton, Vit Krejci
SG: Anthony Edwards, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Wendell Moore, Trevor Keels
SF: Jaden McDaniels, Troy Brown, Matt Ryan, Jaylen Clark
PF: Karl-Anthony Towns, Kyle Anderson, Leonard Miller, Josh Minott
C: Rudy Gobert, Naz Reid, Luka Garza

19. Chicago Bulls (+12500)

PG: Ayo Dosunmnu, Jevon Carter, Dalen Terry, Quenton Jackson, Lonzo Ball (hurt)
SG: Zach LaVine, Coby White, Carlik Jones, Henri Drell, Max Heidegger
SF: DeMar DeRozan, Alex Caruso, Julian Phillips, Onuralp Bitim
PF: Patrick Williams, Torrey Craig, Adama Sanogo, Justin Lewis
C: Nikola Vucevic, Andre Drummond, Terry Taylor

20. Atlanta Hawks (+7000)

PG: Trae Young, Patty Mills, Kobe Bufkin, Trent Forrest
SG: Dejounte Murray, Bogdan Bogdanovic, Wesley Matthews, Seth Lundy
SF: De’Andre Hunter, AJ Griffin, Garrison Mathews
PF: Daddiq Bey, Jalen Johnson, Mouhamed Gueye, Miles Norris
C: Clint Capela, Onyeka Okongwu, Bruno Fernando

“So You’re Tellin’ Me There’s a Chance?”

21. Indiana Pacers (+20000)

PG: Tyrese Haliburton, TJ McConnell, Isaiah Wong, Darius McGhee
SG: Buddy Hield,
Bruce Brown, Ben Sheppard, Craig Sword, Pedro Bradshaw
SF: Bennedict Mathurin, Andrew Nembhard, Aaron Nesmith, Kendall Brown
PF: Obi Toppin, Jarace Walker, Jordan Nwora, Daniel Theis, Jordan Bell
C: Myles Turner, Jalen Smith, Isaiah Jackson, Oscar Tshiebwe

22. Orlando Magic (+30000)

PG: Anthony Black, Markelle Fultz, Cole Anthony, Mac McClung, Brandon Williams
SG: Gary Harris, Jalen Suggs, Kevon Harris, Trevelin Queen
SF: Franz Wagner, Joe Ingles, Jett Howard, Caleb Houstan, Miye Oni
PF: Paolo Banchero, Jonathan Isaac, Chuma Okeke, Admiral Schofield
C: Wendell Carter Jr., Goga Bitadze, Moritz Wagner

23. Brooklyn Nets (+10000)

PG: Ben Simmons, Dennis Smith Jr., Armoni Brooks
SG: Spencer Dinwiddie, Lonnie Walker IV, Cam Thomas, Kyler Edwards
SF: Mikal Bridges, Royce O’Neale, Dariq Whitehead, Jalen Wilson, Scottie Lindsey
PF: Cam Johnson, Dorian Finney-Smith, Darius Bazley, Trendon Watford
C: Nic Claxton, Day’Ron Sharpe, Noah Clowney, Harry Giles, Patrick Gardner

24. Detroit Pistons (+30000)

PG: Cade Cunningham, Killian Hayes, Monte Morris, Marcus Sasser, Zavier Simpson
SG: Jaden Ivey, Ausar Thompson, Joe Harris, Malcolm Cazalon, Stanley Umude
SF: Bojan Bogdanovic, Alec Burks, Jared Rhodes, Buddy Boeheim
PF: James Wiseman, Marvin Bagley, Isaiah Livers, Tosan Evbuomwan
C: Jalen Duren, Isaiah Stewart, Jontay Porter

25. San Antonio Spurs (+15000)

PG: Tre Jones, Blake Wesley, Malaki Branham
SG: Devin Vassell, Devonte Graham, Sir’Jabari Rice, Javante McCoy
SF: Keldon Johnson, Reggie Bullock, Julian Champagnie, Sidy Cissoko, Seth Millner
PF: Victor Wembanyama
, Jeremy Sochan, Doug McDermott, Cedi Osman, Dominick Barlow
C: Zach Collins, Sandro Mamukelashvili, Charles Bassey, Khem Birch

Bottom Feeders

26. Utah Jazz (+25000)

PG: Collin Sexton, Talen Horton-Tucker, Kris Dunn
SG: Jordan Clarkson, Keyonte George, Brice Sensabaugh, Romeo Langford, Taevion Kinsey
SF: Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, Simone Fontecchio, Johnny Juzang
PF: John Collins, Taylor Hendricks, Luka Samanic, Joey Hauser
C: Walker Kessler, Kelly Olynyk, Omer Yurtseven, Micah Potter, Nick Ongenda

27. Houston Rockets (+20000)

PG: Fred VanVleet, Amen Thompson, Aaron Holiday, Trevor Hudgins
SG: Jalen Green, Jae’Sean Tate, Jeenathan Williams, Nate Hinton, Kevin Porter Jr.
SF: Dillon Brooks, Tari Eason, Cam Whitmore, Jermaine Samuels, Joshua Obiesie
PF: Jabari Smith, Jeff Green, Darius Days, Nate Hinton
C: Alperen Sengun, Jock Landale, Boban Marjanovic

28. Portland Trail Blazers (+25000)

PG: Scoot Henderson, Malcolm Brogdon, Ashton Hagans
SG: Shaedon Sharpe
, Anfernee Simons, Rayan Rupert
SF: Matisse Thybulle, Jabari Walker, Toumani Camara
PF: Jerami Grant, Kris Murray, Kevin Knox, George Conditt
C: Deandre Ayton, Robert Williams
III, John Butler, Ibou Badji, Moses Brown

29. Charlotte Hornets (+30000)

PG: LaMelo Ball, Nick Smith, Frank Ntilikina
SG: Terry Rozier, Bryce McGowens, James Bouknight, Amari Bailey, Jaylen Sims
SF: Gordon Hayward, Cody Martin, Leaky Black, RJ Hunter, Angelo Allegri
PF: Brandon Miller, PJ Washington, JT Thor, Tre Scott, Miles Bridges (SSPD)
C: Mark Williams, Nick Richards, Kai Jones, Nathan Mensah

30. Washington Wizards (+30000)

PG: Tyus Jones, Delon Wright, Jared Butler
SG: Jordan Poole, Landry Shamet, Johnny Davis, Ryan Rollins, Chase Audige
SF: Deni Avdija, Corey Kispert, Bilal Coulibaly, Eurgene Omoruyi, Dejan Vasiljevic
PF: Kyle Kuzma, Danilo Gallinari, Anthony Gill, Patrick Baldwin
C: Daniel Gafford, Mike Muscala, Xavier Cooks, DeAndre Jordan

All betting lines via bet365.com
Photo via Ron Chenoy-USA TODAY Sports

By Ben Cherry

Founder, university dropout, 2018 Palooza world beer pong bronze medalist. A Toronto sports groupie as stubborn as they come. Mostly aggravating online, convivial to have a beer with.